Floriado online

[Cwali]

Thomas Rosanski programmed an online version for the new game Floriado, to play with 2 players at one computer.
See http://www.thomas-rosanski.de/spiele/floriado/

It works nice online. The only thing you don't see there is the total rows of collected cards, only the highest card and the worth of the row (which indicates the length of the row, so you don't need to see more on your screen, but if you don't read the rules first then you may miss the idea of making rows of identic flowers long ;-) ).

Have fun,
Corné
Cwali

[Guenter Cornett]

Cwali schrieb:
>
> Thomas Rosanski programmed an online version for the new game
> Floriado, to play with 2 players at one computer.
> See http://www.thomas-rosanski.de/spiele/floriado/

I saw it, played it and also read that you give it for free in Essen.
If it would be a better game I would became angry because it uses the basic system of Pingvinas which I showed you in Herne. Of course pure ideas cannot be protected and the games are quite different, but nevertheless that's not gentlemanlike.

Because of Pingvinas is easier to play (easier to see good moves) and has more strategic components, it doesn't matter.

Cwali is a qual (even when Cwali gives games for free), yes ;-)

Guenter

[Cwali]

Guenter Cornett schrieb:

> I saw it, played it and also read that you give it for free
> in Essen.
> If it would be a better game I would became angry because it
> uses the basic system of Pingvinas which I showed you in
> Herne. Of course pure ideas cannot be protected and the games
> are quite different, but nevertheless that's not gentlemanlike.
>
> Because of Pingvinas is easier to play (easier to see good
> moves) and has more strategic components, it doesn't matter.
>
> Cwali is a qual (even when Cwali gives games for free), yes ;-)

I know that you like to speak bad about me but this makes no sense, Guenter.
Floriado is not chocking innovative but if you play it you will see that it is not like your game.
It has simularities to Fossil, Scarab, Lost Cities, Colorretto, Kupferkessel & Co and other games. But during the game you will see that the main feeling is different. (Did you really play it, Guenter or are you just suspicious?) Playing Fossil many years ago probably originated my idea to make a combination of route-planning and collecting with much influence in the game (only collecting tiles in a grid was in Fossil (and in other games before Fossil). There are more games with that idea. That's not wrong!

I heared former years that Morisi was like Siedler, Titicaca was like Morisi, StreetSoccer is made so many times before me :-), and so on. I never heared such things after people played the games. Don't let anyone foul you. All Cwali-games are very original again!

Pingvinas is a very nice and very different game. But I now will get a bad feeling when I hear that name. :-(

Thanks again, Guenter!

Groeten,
Corné :-(
Cwali

[Guenter Cornett]

Cwali schrieb:
>
> Guenter Cornett schrieb:
>
> > I saw it, played it and also read that you give it for free
> > in Essen.
> > If it would be a better game I would became angry because it
> > uses the basic system of Pingvinas which I showed you in
> > Herne. Of course pure ideas cannot be protected and the games
> > are quite different, but nevertheless that's not
> > gentlemanlike.
> >
> > Because of Pingvinas is easier to play (easier to see good
> > moves) and has more strategic components, it doesn't matter.
> >
> > Cwali is a qual (even when Cwali gives games for free), yes
> ;-)
>
> I know that you like to speak bad about me

What do you mean ? Tell it and blame yourself!
Since you didn't got a place at SdJ-list you say I'm responsible for that.
Do you've any arguments for Guenter-Cornett-against-Cwali-Weltverschwörung, crazy guy?

> but this makes no sense, Guenter.
> Floriado is not chocking innovative but if you play it you
> will see that it is not like your game.
> It has simularities to Fossil, Scarab, Lost Cities,
> Colorretto, Kupferkessel & Co and other games. But during the
> game you will see that the main feeling is different. (Did
> you really play it, Guenter or are you just suspicious?)

I played it and I wrote that's a different game. Please read the lines in the text above (not the lines in your mind).

My reproach is something else:
When you played Pingvinas in Herne, you told me that you like this game very much, especially as a two player game. Then you made another two player game using the same basic system and offer it for free in Essen. That's not collegial. Collegial would be to wait until Pingvinas is on market but not to use your knowledge about and to try to be faster.

Ok, it's your right to do and it was my mistake to expect collegial behaviour of yours.

> Pingvinas is a very nice and very different game. But I now
> will get a bad feeling when I hear that name. :-(

I don't have a problem with that.

> Thanks again, Guenter!

Again ? For what first ?

Ah, I forget. For big Weltverschwörung...

tschüs, Günter Gaukelei (alias Dr. Bambuse, alias Bambtomas, ...)

[Cwali]

Guenter Cornett schrieb:

> > > If it would be a better game I would became angry

You talk bad about all my games. :-)

> Since you didn't got a place at SdJ-list you say I'm
> responsible for that.

:???:
I did not!

> > Floriado is not chocking innovative but if you play it you
> > will see that it is not like your game.
> > It has simularities to Fossil, Scarab, Lost Cities,
> > Colorretto, Kupferkessel & Co and other games. But during the
> > game you will see that the main feeling is different. (Did
> > you really play it, Guenter or are you just suspicious?)
>
> I played it and I wrote that's a different game. Please read
> the lines in the text above
>
> My reproach is something else:
...

Now you say again that I made it like your game. Think a little first. Later people can play and see self to which other games it can remind. Not to your game. And, again, it's quite original for a game with less then 500 words rules.

> When you played Pingvinas in Herne, you told me that you like
> this game very much

I can be possitive about games made by collegues! In fact I always are. I don't want to judge others. Yes, in case of the SdJ-list I did say something bad about that list. (big deal.) I should not do that, but luckily I didn't speak bad about any specific game. :-)

It's all to stupid to react on, so I stop here. :cry:

Groeten,
Corné :-/
Cwali

[Guenter Cornett]

Cwali schrieb:
>
> Guenter Cornett schrieb:
>
> > > > If it would be a better game I would became angry
>
> You talk bad about all my games. :-)

f.e.: http://www.reich-der-spiele.de/kritiken/Nasca.php ?

> > Since you didn't got a place at SdJ-list you say I'm
> > responsible for that.
>
> :???:
> I did not!


In Herne I spoke a colleque publisher. That week he did had a meeting with one of the members of the jury to play many games. Among many games StreetSoccer too. That colleque thinks that StreetSoccer is not good and told that after trying a few turns the jury-member was convinced about that too and they stopped their match. That colleque finds ZooSim "Schwerig" (at least an original vision ...).
So I thougth: no Cwali-game in the SdJ-list. And didn't mind about that at that time. Finally I see in the list a game which that colleque publisher sells.

http://www.spielbox.de/phorum4/read.php4?f=1&i=68617&t=68438

BTW: I never said Streetsoccer is a bad game but that there is too much luck.

> > > game you will see that the main feeling is different. (Did
> > > you really play it, Guenter or are you just suspicious?)
> >
> > I played it and I wrote that's a different game. Please read
> > the lines in the text above
> >
> > My reproach is something else:
> ...
>
> Now you say again that I made it like your game.

??

You and I know why you didn't quoted my words here. ;-)

> It's all to stupid to react on, so I stop here

Yes, sometimes that's better.

Guenter

[Cwali]

Guenter Cornett schrieb:

> BTW: I never said Streetsoccer is a bad game but that there
> is too much luck.

Let's speak about that again. ;-)
ca. 5000 matches are completed online, 133 by me. I proofed there enough that it's hard to argue that it has too much luck. You can see all moves of all played and progressing matches. :-) Many fantastic matches, by the way. I don't have a problem if people think it has too much luck, but I don't understand that from you after several matches. I won all in normal time against you.
Online the big competition with 10 leagues started. 19 players per league. And maybe I will not become the champion of this first season, there are many very good players now, who make it hard for my Dutch top-team. :-)

> > Now you say again that I made it like your game.
>
> ??
>
> You and I know why you didn't quoted my words here. ;-)

Don't know what you mean but you are very quick in reacting here. So I can never win this kind of argueing. ;-)

Groeten,
Corné :-/
Cwali

[Erwin Broens]

Hi Günter,

Why don’t you use e-mail for your private little war?

:-(

Gruss,


Erwin

[Günter Cornett]

Erwin Broens schrieb:
>
> Hi Günter,
>
> Why don’t you use e-mail for your private little war?
>
> :-(

Hi Erwin,

maybe because of the same reason you posted your comment to the forum instead of mailing me ;-).

Besides this I think it's a public theme. Better placed in Spieleautoren-forum but the thread started here. Don't know how many postings will come and if it's necessary to go to Spieleautoren-Forum. If somebody writes a longer comment about that point it'll be a good idea to start it there.

Gruss, Guenter

[Cwali]

I feel very sad about the reaction in this thread.

It's always hard to estimate where the inspiration for games or aspects of games precise came from, but in case of Floriado I have a clearer impression about that
than with most of my games.
I will tell that, but then I say/judge more about other games than I want to do in public:
Many years ago I played Fossil with family. In Fossil you collect cards by moving pawns in a 9x9-grid. I direct had the feeling that I would like to have a pawn for my own to plan things. I think thousands of players have the same feeling with Fossil. You are very dependent of the player before you.
But in Fossil you try to collect majorities in different types of tiles and when you can plan your routes better to collect the tiles then you must look very much to the tiles others collected and can collect. Then you are still very dependent of your opponents while you can think about much more in the game. So collecting majorities and having own pawns seems to be a terrible combination. I think at Goldsieber they choosed 2 neutral pawns for that reason. I didn't like to try own pawns with getting majorities. I thought there should be some kind of 'puzzle' in the game which makes the planning interesting, so things you can achieve without being dependent on your opponent's choices too much.
Much later I played Kupferkessel Co. There you have your own pawn to collect cards in a 7x7-grid. The way you move to collect cards is different, but the planning by moving your own pawn attracted me much. But I want a route-planning which is more visual (but the combination of collecting and memory in Kupferkessel is very original and attractive, in my opinion Kupferkessel Co is 'a perfect game', I think only the choice for the dark graphics is terrible for that game).
Scarab is another game close to Fossil. It reminded me again that I'm attracted by making routes through a grid/field of cards/tiles to collect. But the tree of possiblities becomes extremely wide when you try to look a few turns forward. I didn't like that.
The idea of picking flowers and a rule to make that you can't take all came because of my interest in environmental subjects for games. But the implementation of adding flowers of the same type is simular to adding cards of the same type in Lost Cities. I know Lost Cities well, so I'm probably inspired by that game too. So the rule of the order of the cards of one type is now the puzzle in the game to score points independent of which cards the other player collected, like I wanted (of course you are dependent on the behaviour of your opponent but more subtile than with getting majorities).

Pingvinas is an inspiring game, but different. You don't have a feeling of planning a route but more of 'surrounding' your opponent's pawns by your pawns. Very attractive!!!!!
I think Pingvinas is a pure 2-player-game. See that as a positive tip.
Floriado is not a pure 2-player-game, but as free game for in Essen I made the 2-player-version with only 40 cards. (I made a 1-copy-limited-edition of the more-player-game which I gave away at another 'event'. ;-) )

And to complete this for the other new Cwali-games:
--- Logistico:
The ideas for an economical simulation of transport I got when I worked as part-time DHL-courier some years ago. Same counts for the combination of transport by boat, plane and truck.
Auf Achse is one of the games that shows me how attractive it is to plan transport in a game, but Logistico is not like Auf Achse at all.
--- Subulata:
I searched long for the easiest way (in respect to rules and material) to make that an attack isn't direct a counter-attack.
Besides that I wanted to make an attractive Halma-variant. I like Halma but Halma doesn't really work if you play it good. But there is nothing like Halma in Subulata, except moving to opposite corners.

Early greetings,
Corné
Cwali

[Sabine]

"Cwali" hat am 13.10.2003 geschrieben:

> --- Logistico:
> The ideas for an economical simulation of transport I got
> when I worked as part-time DHL-courier some years ago. Same
> counts for the combination of transport by boat, plane and
> truck.

Have you ever seen Conquest by Hexagames? Soldiers move either themselves or are transported by elephants and the whole group is transported by boats. Which means soldiers that normally only can move two squares, move a large distance. A really great game and I hope, Donald Benge, wo invented it, will again be in Essen this year.
Sabine

[Cwali]

Sabine schrieb:
>
> "Cwali" hat am 13.10.2003 geschrieben:
>
> > --- Logistico:
> > The ideas for an economical simulation of transport I got
> > when I worked as part-time DHL-courier some years ago. Same
> > counts for the combination of transport by boat, plane and
> > truck.
>
> Have you ever seen Conquest by Hexagames? Soldiers move
> either themselves or are transported by elephants and the
> whole group is transported by boats. Which means soldiers
> that normally only can move two squares, move a large
> distance. A really great game and I hope, Donald Benge, wo
> invented it, will again be in Essen this year.

I don't know that game yet.

Groeten,
Corné

[Attila]

Bleib ruhig Günter!
Auto's haben auch alle 4 Räder und keiner wirft dem anderen vor abgeguckt zu haben! - Du bist mit deinem post auch nicht "Gentlemanlike" - ganz-und-gar-nicht!

Atti

[Günter Cornett]

Attila schrieb:
>
> Bleib ruhig Günter!
> Auto's haben auch alle 4 Räder und keiner wirft dem anderen
> vor abgeguckt zu haben! - Du bist mit deinem post auch nicht

Es geht nicht um 'Ideenklau'. Das habe ich auch so geschrieben.

Corné hat sich durch Pingvinas zu einem anderen Spiel interpretieren lassen, das auf der gleichen Grundidee basiert. Die Ähnlichkeiten bestehen nur in grundsätzlichen Mechanismen und auch gegenüber anderen schon auf dem Markt befindlichen Spielen (z.T. in stärkerem Mass). Das ist keinesfalls verwerflich sondern völlig gängig. Würde man sich nicht durch andere Spiele inspirieren lassen, gäbe es viele gute Spiele nicht (und Pingvinas wohl auch nicht).

Mein Vorwurf an Corné:
Corné war von Pingvinas sehr angetan, hat die Veröffentlichung seines durch Pingvinas inspirierten Spieles dann in Konkurrenz auch zu Pingvinas so forciert, dass es quasi früher erscheint, und gibt es dabei auch noch umsonst ab. Das ist unkollegial.

Man kann natürlich auch sagen: das ist Marktwirtschaft und ich sollte selbst darauf achten, mit wem ich Spiele teste ...

> "Gentlemanlike" - ganz-und-gar-nicht!

Ich sage offen, was ich denke, und stehe mit meinem Namen dazu.

Gruß, Günter

[Christian Hildenbrand]

Hallihallo !

Nachdem ich diesen Thread gelesen hatte, dachte ich mir, schaue ich mir das "Floriado" doch mal an, um mir mal ein Bild zu machen. Ich habe "Pingvinas" bereits gespielt, und von dem her denke ich, kann ich vielleicht einen qualifizierten Kommentar zu dieser Diskussion beitragen.

Ja, es hat mich beim Lesen der Regeln und auch beim Probespielen sehr an andere Spiele erinnert. Das Sammeln von Gruppen an Karten wie in Kupferkessel&Co bzw. in Fossil, das Abarbeiten in einer absteigenden Reihe vergleichbar zu Lost Cities, und noch ein paar kleinere mehr.

Und eben auch an Pingvinas. Ich denke mal, das hätte es auch, wenn ich diesen Thread vorher nicht gelesen hätte, denn es ist sich schon gewissermaßen ähnlich. Das Ziehen von Karte zu Karte und die betretene Karte dabei einsammeln. Wobei natürlich auch Unterschiede bestehen betreffs Überspringen des Gegners, von leeren Feldern, das nicht zwangsweise Einsammeln von Karten, wenn zu viele Blumen drauf sind. In den Punkten unterscheidet sich das Spiel im Zugmechanismus (da dürfen Gegner und leere Felder nicht übersprungen werden, was das ganze bedeutend taktischer macht).

Inwieweit Corne Günters Spiel vorher gespielt hat, um sich evtl. davon inspirieren zu lassen, das will und kann ich nicht beurteilen. Das ist eine Sache zwischen den beiden. Ich halte es auch nicht für schlimm, daß diese Diskussion hier ins Spieleforum geraten ist, schließlich sollen hier Spiele auch diskutiert werden. Daß es aber so z.T. ins persönliche gehen mußte, das fand ich sehr schade. Aber naja, ist nun mal passiert.

Ich freu mich trotzdem auf beide Spiele in Essen. ;-)

Beschwichtigende Grüße !

Ciao, Christian (... noch 211,75 Stunden ...)

[Cwali]

Günter Cornett schrieb:
>
> Attila schrieb:
> >
> > Bleib ruhig Günter!
> > Auto's haben auch alle 4 Räder und keiner wirft dem anderen
> > vor abgeguckt zu haben! - Du bist mit deinem post auch nicht
>
> Es geht nicht um 'Ideenklau'. Das habe ich auch so
> geschrieben.
>
> Corné hat sich durch Pingvinas zu einem anderen Spiel
> interpretieren lassen, das auf der gleichen Grundidee
> basiert. Die Ähnlichkeiten bestehen nur in grundsätzlichen
> Mechanismen und auch gegenüber anderen schon auf dem Markt
> befindlichen Spielen (z.T. in stärkerem Mass). Das ist
> keinesfalls verwerflich sondern völlig gängig. Würde man sich
> nicht durch andere Spiele inspirieren lassen, gäbe es viele
> gute Spiele nicht (und Pingvinas wohl auch nicht).
>
> Mein Vorwurf an Corné:
> Corné war von Pingvinas sehr angetan, hat die
> Veröffentlichung seines durch Pingvinas inspirierten Spieles
> dann in Konkurrenz auch zu Pingvinas so forciert, dass es
> quasi früher erscheint, und gibt es dabei auch noch umsonst
> ab. Das ist unkollegial.

See the origin of Floriado under in this thread.
If I didn't have the order for the dice-games last year (which I used as free game last year), then I may have used a game like Floriado last year as free game.
The game on Thomas' website has nothing to do with Konkurrenz.

Don't worry about Pingvinas, Guenter. That game doesn't have to fear any competition. I read that you have 200 copies. If you don't sell that in Essen, then I buy the rest ... maybe. ;-)

Gruß,
Corné

[Cwali]

Christian Hildenbrand schrieb:

> Ja, es hat mich beim Lesen der Regeln und auch beim
> Probespielen sehr an andere Spiele erinnert. Das Sammeln von
> Gruppen an Karten wie in Kupferkessel&Co bzw. in Fossil, das
> Abarbeiten in einer absteigenden Reihe vergleichbar zu Lost
> Cities, und noch ein paar kleinere mehr.
>
> Und eben auch an Pingvinas. Ich denke mal, das hätte es auch,
> wenn ich diesen Thread vorher nicht gelesen hätte, denn es
> ist sich schon gewissermaßen ähnlich. Das Ziehen von Karte zu
> Karte und die betretene Karte dabei einsammeln. Wobei
> natürlich auch Unterschiede bestehen betreffs Überspringen
> des Gegners, von leeren Feldern, das nicht zwangsweise
> Einsammeln von Karten, wenn zu viele Blumen drauf sind. In
> den Punkten unterscheidet sich das Spiel im Zugmechanismus
> (da dürfen Gegner und leere Felder nicht übersprungen werden,
> was das ganze bedeutend taktischer macht).

In Floriado you try to maintain a route that makes that you can collect the flowers per colour in the right order from high to low. (You can make a solitaire-game with it.) In Pingvinas you try to lock in figures of your opponent(s). It's hard to compare that.

> Ich freu mich trotzdem auf beide Spiele in Essen. ;-)

Me too.

Grüße,
Corné

> (... noch 211,75 Stunden ...)

Then I have to hurry.

[RoGo]

Hi Corné,
have you read the new fairplay issue?
There is an article about Scarab and Corner. Corner in a Sid Sackson game from the early eighties and has many things in common, but is a little more sophisticated.
Regards
Roland

[Cwali]

RoGo schrieb:
>
> Hi Corné,
> have you read the new fairplay issue?
> There is an article about Scarab and Corner. Corner in a Sid
> Sackson game from the early eighties and has many things in
> common, but is a little more sophisticated.

Hoi Roland,
I didn't see that yet.

Groeten,
Corné